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DEFENDERS OF THE FAITH
YOUR HOME FOR METAL ALBUM REVIEWS, CONCERT REVIEWS, AND INTERVIEWS.
Robert Garven (Cirith Ungol) Interview
October 6, 2023 Joe Miller Interviews
Clad in wolf fur, a wild head of hair, and his iconic mustache, Robert Garven has been the thunderous beat behind epic metal gods Cirith Ungol from day one. Their ā80s output is among the most influential in metal history, helping shape the genres of doom metal, power metal, and death metal, just to name a few. After a nearly quarter century dormancy, the US metal warriors awoke from their slumber, this time to lay waste to a new millennium. On the verge of their second comeback offering, Dark Parade, we sat down with Garven to discuss 50+ years of heavy history. āCrown upon his head. King of all the dead.ā
Greetings Robert and welcome to Defenders of the Faith! How are you doing today?
Robert Garven: Iām okay! How are you doing?
Great, thank you. Before we start, Iād like to apologize in advance. If Iām a little hard of hearing, itās because my ears are still ringing from that colossal set Cirith Ungol played at Reggies in Chicago about 5 years ago now.
RG: *laughs* Iām probably still deaf from all those put together.
That was my first and only time seeing the band thus far. I felt like I was atop a mountain with a sword in one hand and the head of my enemy in the other, which is exactly how one should feel at a Cirith Ungol show.
RG: That was a fantastic festival (Legions of Metal). We loved being there. It was really cool. Iāve been to Chicago once before, but I had never been to downtown Chicago. It was more out in the suburbs. Outside of town, we went to a music convention where they had a bunch of guitars. This is funny. Some of the stuff I say is not really band related, but some of the stories are funnier than the actual band.
We went out to thisā¦I think it was a school auditorium, but they were selling vintage guitars and stuff. There was a school table that was, not fragile, but you could push it over pretty easy. Its got the legs that fold out. I can send you a picture, but anyway, on this table was all these guitars: early Gibson, Martin. They had price tags on them like $100,000, $150,000. There was at least 10 of them on one table. As we walked by, I bumped into the table. They didnāt fall over, but they all kind of rattled. We were all joking, āHey, stay away from that table!ā *laughs* Then we walked up the street for some deep dish Chicago pizza. I canāt pronounce the name of the placeā¦
Lou Malnatiās?
RG: Yeah! We were joking because it sounds like the secret society, illuminati. Lou Malnatiās, illuminatiāsā¦anyways, it was fantastic. We loved being in Chicago. It was a fun time. I never saw the lake. I canāt believe it, but we walked right around the corner and there was a White Castle. They said it was the first one in the world ever. It was kind of a weird story. Those are my Chicago memories.
A few years have passed since the release of Forever Black, which I still hold to be the finest metal album of the ā20s thus far. How soon after did ideas start coming together for this new album, Dark Parade?
RG: Forever Black came out right during the pandemic, which was horrible. Iāve been joking with people, and I wish I had the calendar in front of me. It came out on either March or April 20th. That was almost, where we live, the same day that the worldwide pandemic happened. I remember walking around the neighborhood with my wife or driving around or whatever we were doing. It was like in one of those sci-fi movies where you go to a town where thereās a million people and the streets are all deserted and nobodyās there.
I guess the only good thing you can say about it is people were trapped at home, so they had more time to listen to music. People all over the world died, so Iām not minimizing the real horror of the tragedy, but for the whole music industry and for us as a band it was hard because not only did we just reunite after this long absence, but some of the biggest shows we were ever gonna play were booked and they all got cancelled. To be honest, 3 years got taken out of our lives and itās weird. If youāre young like you, 3 years, you look back and go, āThat was a bad 3 years.ā If youāre almost 70, 3 years could be your last year. Thatās where weāre coming from.
Almost every time that weāve put out an album, we started writing material as soon as the album was done. I donāt mean released, because we finished Dark Paradeā¦we had a final deadline around February 20th, so we were done with it earlier this year. The joke is we wished we couldāve spent another 2 years mixing it down. Are you in a band? You look like youāre in a band.
Yeah, Iāve done bands and projects over the years. Nothing substantial, but you know!
RG: That was the joke. If we had one of those million dollar recording budgets, thatās what we wouldāve done. Theyād probably have to release the album posthumously because we dragged it out so long! That happened right then and we started working on the material right away. Thereās a couple of misconceptions. We put out Half Past Human in the middle of the pandemic because after releasing Forever Black, we thought, āWow, this is our first studio album in 30 years. We canāt put out another studio album in the middle of this giant shutdown.ā
People kept saying, āWhy donāt you rerecord some of your other material?ā We said, āNo, thatās ridiculous. Weāre old. We wanna put out new material. We already did that. Thatās old material.ā But then we started thinking, āHey, you know what? Instead of putting out a new album and having it languish in the middle of the pandemic, letās rerecord some old stuff.ā Thatās where Half Past Human came from. I think it came out better than we thought. We actually breathed some new life into really old songs. People keep asking, āIs there a bunch of old stuff on Forever Black and Dark Parade?ā Itās kind of confusing because we put that album out as a bookmark in between albums. It was never meant to be a new album of all new material. It was all old material and then our other stuff, guaranteed, is all new material.
On an album of colossally crushing epic metal hymns, what gave āDark Paradeā the edge in terms of becoming the albumās title?
RG: That kind of goes back to Tim (Baker). Iāve been sharing this with people too. Hereās another thing. Are we a doom band? Are we an epic metal band? Itās hard to put us into any kind of pigeonhole, but when our first album came out, Frost and Fire, most of the stuff we put on there was stuff we thought was commercially radio friendly. Back then, in the ā80s, you wanted to get on the radio. Thatās the only way youād ever get a record contract or anything. Thatās why all the hair metal bands were popping up with hit singles. We were never a hit single band, but Frost and Fire was the stuff we thought could be hit single stuff at the time.
They played it at some L.A. radio stations and said, āOh my God! This is too heavy!ā We were like, āYouāre playing Black Sabbath. How can this be too heavy?ā I think the real story was it was too different. Itās strange. Itās different. Itās not like anyone else. Right after we put out the album, we got in touch with Brian Slagel who started Metal Blade Records. He worked at a record store. We were trying to shop the record around, even to stores. āHey, can you sell our record? Weāre a heavy metal band.ā He put us in touch with the guys that helped us get it distributed and exported around the world, which brought the band into a worldwide audience which we never had before.
Anyways, getting back to the two sides of Cirith Ungol, we always had the sword and sorcery stuff. Then Brian goes, āI wanna start doing a record company. Iām gonna put out a compilation album.ā On that album, we put on a song that we wrote, āDeath of the Sunā. I wrote the lyrics for that. Itās about in the future, when the sun burns out, of course it probably wonāt burn out for another 100 million years, so we probably canāt wait that long, but weād probably all melt. It was like a primitive version of our earliest doom rock. People have called us the grandfathers of doom.
Iām not sure if thatās true, but getting back to what gave āDark Paradeā the edge is that weāve always had these two sides: sword and sorcery and doom. Theyāve coexisted. With all the bad stuff happening around us, a lot of the doom stuff seems being pushed to the fore. On our last 3 albums, Paradise Lost, Forever Black, and Dark Parade, side 2 is relegated to Timās vision of the downfall of mankind. I canāt actually answer your question because itās a little more complex than that, but I really think itās a progression from where we left off with Paradise Lost. We came back. We did Forever Black, which had a really dark feeling to it.
People have asked, āDuring the pandemic, did it affect your vision for this album?ā I would say no, but it was also swirling around behind us. It probably affected us, maybe not superficially, but it affected our psyche or something. To get to my final point, we always try to put out one better album after another. We wanted to make this one heavier than Forever Black. I donāt know if we succeeded, but we think itās very cool.
That serves as an excellent segue into my next question. Correct me if Iām wrong, but upon first few listens, Dark Parade feels much doomier than Forever Black. Was this a conscious effort on the bandās behalf or did it just come out that way?
RG: I think both. I think thatās what we wanted and it came out that way. One of the other funny comments is everyone saysā¦thatās the other thing. I was talking to Armand (John Anthony), the guy who owns the studio. Heās the guitarist for Night Demon. Anyway, he recorded our last 3 projects and we were laughing about it. No matter what equipment we do any of our stuff on, people keep saying, āThat sounds like it came out in the 1980s.ā because weāre from the 1980s! Itās like if The Beatles put out a new album, it would sound like The Beatles.
That was the funny thing when we put out our first song when we got back together, āWitchās Gameā, people said, āWow, I canāt believe they can write and it sounds like Cirith Ungol. How come it still sounds like them?ā Well, you know! Itās basically Tim. I play some really weird drumbeats that most drummers donāt even understand. Tim has this voice. People are still picking on him saying, āHeās so extreme.ā But with all the genres like black metal and death metal where the singing is so extreme, to me it seems like Tim is Frank Sinatra. People are still saying, āOh my God! Do you have a future with such an extreme singer?ā
You certainly have thus far. As a drummer, is it more fun for you to play slow, plodding parts like on āCirith Ungolā, or the high speed, blasting sections like on ā100 M.P.H.ā?
RG: You know, thereās an old joke. How can you tell a drummerās knocking at your door? The knocks start speeding up. A lot of times, and itās not just me. Iāve always been a big fan of ZZ Top. Theyāre not traditional heavy metal, but theyāre a pretty amazing band. I remember the first time I saw them, way back in the 1980s, they were playing stuff like āBeer Drinkers & Hell Raisersā and it was 3 times faster than it was on the album *laughs*. I donāt know. I enjoy both of them.
Iām not really a fast drummer. Thatās not really my thing. Matter of fact, when all the thrash and speed metal came out, thatās one of the reasons we quit. Weāre this traditional metal band. We came from Blue Cheer, Black Sabbath, Deep Purple. Thatās what we grew up listening to. Jimi Hendrix, Cream, and so on. To me, it was something that was so fast it made me nervous. To me, heavy is pounding. Itās like your heart beating. I guess your heart can beat fast, but itās not really supposed to unless youāre scared or something.
I just love playing drums. Iām the first to admit, Neil Peart, before Rush got famous, we went to a bunch of their shows and hung out with them. He taught me how to spin a stick, which is amazing. I can say the guy who taught me how to spin a drumstick was Neil Peart. I never considered myself a technical drummer, but I always considered myself someone in the vein of like Bill Ward, someone whoās more of a heavy, crazy rock drummer.
I never knew that Rush story! Neil is my favorite drummer of all time.
RG: He was amazing. We lost him. If you actually go on the bandās Instagram account, youāll see some pictures of us sitting backstage with them back then. I actually went to see them play at the Whisky with a couple of my friends when they were still around here in town. There was just a handful of us there. We went backstage and hung out with them. Thatās when you smoked pot. Back then, everyone smoked pot *laughs*. They were really amazing.
They said a funny thing too. It didnāt really come to pass for them. They said, āWe wanna play the heaviest music we can.ā I love Rush, donāt get me wrong, but theyāre more of a progressive rock band. It seemed like their career, they had so many records out that spanned this giant spectrum of every different kind ofā¦Iāve even seen some, you know, 4 or 5 albums in, they had this thing where they almost look new wave. Theyāre wearing little skinny ties. We said the same thing. I was talking to Alex Lifeson about that and we both said we wanted to play the heaviest music ever.
Obviously, they went on and made hundreds of millions of dollars while weāre still struggling to do anything right. I think weāre at least staying truer to that original idea that what we wanna put out is as heavy as we can. Now is it the heaviest metal known to man? We think it is, but thatās left to our listeners and your readers to see if they share that same sentiment.
Tim Bakerās banshee wails on this album are as primal and powerful as ever. Besides King Diamond, he has to be the most distinct vocalist in metal history. I know Tim was originally a roadie for Cirith Ungol in the early ā70s. When did the band make the realization that he was the right fit to front the band?
RG: Itās funny. Our first singer, Neal Beattie, was here the other day. He lives out of town, but he showed up at my front door after band practice one day, so we went out to dinner and talked. He was an amazing guy. Once again, he was a good friend, so itās not like we threw him out of the band. I think we were looking for something different. We said, āWe wanna try something different.ā, so he left the band and we played for a while as an instrumental group, which was really weird. In my brain, Iām trying to think of some other bands that were instrumental at that time.
Mahavishnu Orchestra?
RG: Thatās who I was trying to think of that I couldnāt put my finger on! We played the Starwood and the Roxy. We played a bunch of places as an instrumental band. People came to see us, but we were still searching for someone. Timā¦Iām not sure about the word āroadiesā. To this day, Iām still a roadie *laughs*, but Tim was definitely hanging around the band. He did some sound at some of our shows. We always had someone back there working the board. Someone said, āTry Tim out! He has this wild scream!ā
I think either before Neal completely left or something, thereās a song, āWe Know Youāre Out Thereā, about UFOs. Greg (Lindstrom) wrote the lyrics to it. Itās on The Orange Album that Jarvis (Leatherby) put out: A little orange tape that we made to get record company recognition and we never got any. Anyway, Neal and Tim are singing, if not a duet, tradeoff vocals. Itās interesting. Thatās how Tim got in the band. Youāre right about how distinct he is. Heās like Picasso. He has a Blue Period. I love the Frost and Fire stuff because his voice is like a razor blade! It slices through you, but then later on, he progresses. He wanted to be more like an opera singer. A crazy opera singer *laughs*!
To commemorate the release of Dark Parade, Cirith Ungol is returning to the legendary Roxy Theatre, where the bandās iconic live ā83 bootleg was recorded. What are your memories of that original show and what can the fans expect for this new one?
RG: Oh my goodness. I donāt remember that much because I just asked somebody the other day, āIs there a place to park?ā *laughs*. That whole era of playing down there was a cool thing. Like you said, thereās a video of it with some cool things. One thing I remember was one of our songs, āBlack Machineā, the way I recorded it when I played it live, I did a bass drumbeat on the second main riff and I do that to this day because I heard it on the video of us doing it at the Roxy. I went, āWow, that sounds really cool!ā, so to this day when I do āBlack Machineā, I do this weird drumbeat in the second verse.
Weāre excited about it. Weāre famous all over the world, but in the United States, people are really spread out. I know this sounds crazy, but if youāre in Europe, you can fly for 2 hours and go from Germany to Italy or England or to Sweden or somewhere like that. For us to fly over there, sometimes it takes literally 3 full days to get to Germany, play there for a day, and then fly back. Thereās so many metal people over there. Itās easier for them to travel. Even being in a big city like Los Angeles, weāre excited about it. Thereās a lot of metal people there to get them all together and excited and have them come out. No one wants to get off their couch nowadays *laughs*. Weāre looking forward to it and itās gonna be recorded and videotaped.
Officially this time!
RG: Yep, there you go.
I was reading an old profile on the band published by the Ventura County Star Free Press on September 23, 1978. In this article, you speak of how most of Cirith Ungolās songs have been condensed to 3-4 minutes, except the āgrand finaleā which ran nearly 30 minutes. What song was the āgrand finaleā in those days?
RG: Wowā¦was that the full page one?
Yes.
RG: Thereās a long story behind that. A guy came out and photographed that. My dad was a businessman here in town and he was friends with the local newspaper. The guy goes, āIām not supposed to do this.ā, but he gave him all the negatives, so I had all the negatives from that. Thereās some really cool photos plastered around here and there of us playing in our band room. The guy sat there and took pictures. I think it was āCirith Ungolā. Weāve ended some of our shows on that now. Iām not sure it was a 30 minute song as much as the ending went on another 10 minutes. The song was 10 minutes and the ending was another 10 or 15 minutes.
Those were the days of the jam.
RG: Yeah! And there had to be the 10 minute drum solo. It only lasted 5 minutes, but the fans thought it lasted 30 minutes *laughs*.
Next year marks 40 years of arguably Cirith Ungolās most iconic album, King of the Dead. Does the band have anything planned to commemorate this occasion?
RG: You know, until you told me about it, I never even thought of that. Metal Blade came out with an ultimate edition of that album. They did one for Frost and Fire and Paradise Lost too. I donāt know. I think that ship mightāve sailed when they did the ultimate edition, but definitely that was an amazing album. Weāre playing a lot of those songs to this day. āMaster of the Pitā, āKing of the Deadā, āBlack Machineā, āAtom Smasherā. We used to start a lot of shows out with āAtom Smasherā. Itās a heavy thing. That was a classic song. Some people think thatās our best effort. Thatās why I think, to be honest, as weāre doing these other albums, weāre not thinking about that specifically, but I think thatās the thing. If weāre gonna make it better than King of the Dead, how are we gonna do that?
Itās been nearly a decade since Cirith Ungol first got back together. Did you believe back then that it would last more than a show or two, let alone festival appearances all over the globe and new music?
RG: No. As a matter of fact, when we got back together, I thought maybe a couple of shows and that was gonna be it. I forgot how amazing it was lifting tons of equipment *laughs*. It was like, āHey, in my old age, I should be doing that again!ā Iām joking, of course. I think playing was fun. Itās an adrenaline rush. Obviously, thereās people out there who love the band. Some people came to the show and said, āI waited my whole life to see you play.ā
We havenāt really played a lot. Weāve done 31 shows since the band got back together. Some of them are bigger festivals. Some of them are smaller clubs, but thereās still people out there who probably want to see us. I think thatās what made me at least stay in the band, thinking, āHey, if weāre gonna do this, we should do it now. Weāre getting older.ā Not only that, but I think a lot of us felt like we had a little bit more to offer.
Someone once said, āYour band will never be relevant. Youāre just an old band playing old music.ā I think when we put out Forever Black, that pretty much said, āMaybe weāre still not relevant, but weāre trying to be relevant.ā Everythingās about how hard you try. Even if you donāt complete a goal, if you tried really hard to complete it, that says more about your character than not trying at all.
Expanding upon the last question, itās incredible to think Cirith Ungol dates back to the early ā70s. Even come the ā80s, when the band was releasing their classic output, many didnāt know what to make of it as the music was so unique. Do you feel Cirith Ungol was a band ahead of their time and are just now getting their due?
RG: I donāt know. We wanna be one of those big bands that sells out 3 nights at a stadium, so I think weāll never get what we feel like our due is. Iām joking, but in a way Iām not. Everyone wants to beā¦my wife says, āYouāre gonna be in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.ā I go, āWeāre not.ā *laughs* We were always different and I think the reason we were different is because we wanted a different outcome. We had a chance in the ā80s to sellout and become more like a hair band. We passed on that.
Our goal was to try to create music for ourselves and if other people liked that, that was fine by us. If other people didnāt, we werenāt betting on trying to get a giant commercial following. We were just trying to play some heavy metal that we thought was true to our roots. Thatās the best explanation that I can give you. To be honest, I donāt know why weāre different, but we are.